Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by essay on May 3, 2011 at 4:49

peanuts.

 

http://www.api.org/policy/tax/upload/Total_Industry_Taxes_April_201...

 

 

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Permalink Reply by essay on April 26, 2011 at 9:54

seems to me that's a bit of cherrypicking data out of cherrypicked data, 2010 was an anomaly for CHK (and probably other O&G's, plus GE to boot)

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Permalink Reply by essay on April 30, 2011 at 16:31

now that all that is out of the way i guess i'll keep the discussion going, watch out for some of the comments in the link it might get political.

 

http://seekingalpha.com/news-article/1003005-obama-rising-gas-price...

 

note opec is suddenly on the periphery, we're now going to "prompt" them to produce more sulfurous, heavy crude that the refineries would probably lose money on at this price.

 

also i wonder, how much of the price we pay at the pump is taxes, vs. how much is profit?  probably wouldn't be all that much trouble to figure for somebody who knew what they were doing, but i'll just take a wag and say taxes by a lot.

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Permalink Reply by Robert Duke on April 30, 2011 at 19:28

I think it averages about 40 cents a gallon is all for gasoline - at least according to various online sources.  I did not troll around enough to be sure the numbers are solid, but this is a govt. source:

 

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/petr...

 

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Permalink Reply by Robert Duke on May 1, 2011 at 4:46

Hmmm, looks like the "other taxes" category that the DOE did not report account for the additional 8 cents or so.  I actually remain surprised that the overall tax bite is as low as it is (not that I love getting taxed), but I understand later arguments about it being significantly higher than actual profits.  Here in Washington we have a sales tax of 9.5 percent (in Seattle area), which is not added to gasoline, but if it was, would hit almost 40 cents with $4.00/gal gas (so the tax rate is just a bit steeper on gasoline than everything else - actually, our rate on gasoline is also above the national avg, but we don't have an income tax).  I have been inclined to think that one problem government agencies have with CNG as a fuel is that there is not a model for taxing the stuff if folks fill up at home...

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Permalink Reply by Robert Duke on May 1, 2011 at 5:39

In regard to taxes on natural gas delivered to the home here in Washington, they add 3.85%.  So that is a significantly lower tax rate than on gasoline (say roughly half), and a dollar spent on natural gas is going to go at least twice as far (actually further for home-sourced NG:  Quick analysis - I pay $1.07 per therm, and a therm is energy equivalent to 0.8 gal of gasoline.  So NG from the home in WA state currently would cost you $1.34 per gasoline gallon equivalent.  Sounds good to me, as we are currently around $4/gal for gasoline...  This $1.07 per therm includes all charges except what is effectively a $10/month flat billing charge.  Note that at $1.07/therm the cost of 1 MCF NG is about $10.00 - about 2.5x the wellhead price).   So two points:  1) the effective tax revenue per btu fuel would be reduced to roughly one sixth of the current revenue, and 2) the revenue is not earmarked for roads and what have you (I need to go look at the allocation of gasoline taxes info you all posted to understand how big a deal this really is, I suppose).

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Permalink Reply by LP on May 1, 2011 at 5:55

Hmmmm....very interesting.

Maybe this is what is causing the stall and lack of enthusiasm in Congress. NG would/could reduce the revenue received through transportation taxes.

Interesting idea. 

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Permalink Reply by Max on May 1, 2011 at 5:19

I have been inclined to think that one problem government agencies have with CNG as a fuel is that there is not a model for taxing the stuff if folks fill up at home...

 

I believe they're already scratching their heads over that one.

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Permalink Reply by essay on May 1, 2011 at 16:33

my perception is that in-home fueling will never happen on any large scale, call it a hunch

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Permalink Reply by LP on May 1, 2011 at 0:19

Regarding the amount of taxes per gallon of gasoline, the state tax varies per state. Federal tax is the same. Here is a chart of gas taxes per state from 2009.

 

Taxes on Gasoline and Diesel for Transportation by U.S. State in U.S. cents per gallon as of July 2009^[3]

State	Gasoline Tax (includes federal tax of 18.4¢/gal)	Diesel Tax (includes federal tax of 24.4¢/gal)
US Average	47.0	51.4
Alabama	39.4	46.3
Alaska	18.4	24.4
Arizona	37.4	43.4
Arkansas	40.2	47.2
California	64.5	68.9
Colorado	40.4	44.9
Connecticut	59.3	69.5
Delaware	41.4	46.4
District of Columbia	38.4	44.4
Florida	52.9	54.2
Georgia	31.4	37.3
Hawaii	62.7	70.8
Idaho	43.4	49.4
Illinois	57.2	64.4
Indiana	52.2	65.9
Iowa	40.4	47.9
Kansas	43.4	51.4
Kentucky	40.9	43.9
Louisiana	38.4	44.4
Maine	49.4	56.6
Maryland	41.9	48.7
Massachusetts	41.9	47.9
Michigan	53.1	55.1
Minnesota	45.6	51.6
Mississippi	37.2	43.2
Missouri	35.7	41.7
Montana	46.2	53.0
Nebraska	45.7	51.7
Nevada	51.5	53.0
New Hampshire	38.0	44.0
New Jersey	32.9	41.9
New Mexico	37.2	47.2
New York	63.4	67.7
North Carolina	48.6	54.6
North Dakota	41.4	47.4
Ohio	46.4	52.4
Oklahoma	35.4	38.4
Oregon	42.4	48.4
Pennsylvania	50.7	63.6
Rhode Island	51.4	57.4
South Carolina	35.2	41.2
South Dakota	42.4	48.4
Tennessee	39.8	42.8
Texas	38.4	44.4
Utah	42.9	48.9
Vermont	41.7	50.4
Virginia	37.8	43.8
Washington	55.9	61.9
West Virginia	50.6	56.5
Wisconsin	51.3	57.3
Wyoming	32.4	38.4

 

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Permalink Reply by essay on May 1, 2011 at 0:46

boy was i naive, turns out from the outside looking in trying to estimate any sort of average profit per gallon of gas is somewhere between "heroic, and incredibly misguided."  the only thing that seems to be agreed upon is that the government makes more per gallon than the independent refiners, and it "might" be a tossup for the big players depending on a lot of factors.  recently an exxon exec claimed they were only making about 7 cents per gallon earlier this year.

 

http://www.steelguru.com/middle_east_news/Exxon_and_Shell_profits_s...

 

is that accurate?  it was about what i expected to find, honestly.  i won't call the guy a liar, i couldn't prove it.  anyway, he did say "and other products" so it still doesn't give us much of an answer about gasoline specifically, but it's worth noting that the ratio of tax to profit is almost 6 to 1.  even if he were completely full of crap and it was double, even triple or quadruple that amount, the company would still  be making less than the various governments do on gasoline sales.

 

somebody stop me if my thinking is incorrect, seems to me that the government might be the one doing the gouging on a consistent basis.  i also think at least some of the more proactive state governments that happen to possess natural gas reserves know quite well they could tax natural gas as a transportation fuel even more than they tax gasoline and diesel, while still enabling their consumers to save money.

 

the era of clean and relatively inexpensive energy is here if only we grasp it, and i wish i thought the federal government could expeditiously facilitate such a change but alas, as i've said before, the states will have to lead the way.  our window of opportunity won't last forever.

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Permalink Reply by LP on May 1, 2011 at 1:09

Your perception looks right to me.

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