Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Clyde T. Williams on February 17, 2012 at 17:25

If you listen to pro-frack we have been doing this 1947 - but they forget to define early fracking as any shooting with explosives-dynamite, glycerin, or amm.nitrate(AMD/FO) which ain't quite the same - but in Calif. we have just today Fracking in 2005 ( with chemical injection, and high fracturing pressure (CA-6-8Kpsi) - so say ten years represents a more mature tech...oh by the way things on the regs side are making up for the delay in communicsions/realization...  In CA the producer did 100% cementing of the casings/bore in 2005 down to 8000+ft TD.  So many are not righting themselves quickly - but watching NG prices decline reminding me that another bubble may be breaking-NPR tonight $2.68MMBtus - with how many wells being shut in ???  TOM

OBTW I am a PhD in geology, lived worked farms, ranches, and rigs in Kansas 55+ years ago Went to NO every winter for five years with my parents, still work to help people north of Beaumont/Buna and Wharton/Matagorda TX...But I can't take the Gulf heat anymore - prefer NO at 50F  TOM

 

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Permalink Reply by Dry Hole on February 18, 2012 at 16:54

  We got about 1/2 of what you did Kathy through the middle of some very good pine timber growing land from TransCanada ----- the negotiations took over a year and were very frustrating and time consuming with the ever looming threat of a eminent domain "taking" of the ROW and the tit for tat negotiations eventually forced us to allow them "temporary" use of our private road during construction.

I can assure all that if we had hired a professional negotiator to deal with these folks by the hour that we would have come out in the red. My understanding is that Transcanada is proceeding on as if they know that the political fight is just SMOKE AND MIRRORS  and George Bush gave it the green light years ago. Personally from a landowner in harms way, I don't see much difference in this pipeline ROW and any other that we have dealt with --- they all have issues good and bad and the goal here is probably to blend the oil with some higher grade oil and make it more valuable.

BTW -- TREE FARMING IS NOT ALLOWED ON THE ROW for obvious reasons

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Permalink Reply by Dry Hole on February 18, 2012 at 18:14

Kathy,

 Did not at all intend to imply that you were the "enemy" -- just trying to tell another angle from first hand experience with the company in Question here.

  As far as zig- zaging the line around unwilling landowners I am sure that would double the mileage. The width that we had to provide them was 50' of permanent easement plus 50' to 100' of temporary workspace  so that is 100 -150'  of width or half a football field so using existing road medians and ditches would not be an option for them and of course they do not have to accommodate anyone as the STATE is on their side. 

 After many decades of experience I have come to the conclusion that it is always best to try and avoid courts if possible and one must realize that there are many different types of  landowners some being very closely attached to their "Home Stead" and others are holding properties for investment and are absentee owners.

 BTW --- The timber had to be removed off the temporary workspace also ---- 25 years of growth gone --- no way to replant a small unmanageable "strip" and have it in sink with the rest of the tract so the temporary is almost the same as the permanent ROW. The Temporary only paid half price. ----- But the IRS is own our side and recognizes all this as DAMAGES ----- also know of some logging companies that charge the landowner $3000 dollars for each Truck Crossing on a pipeline that they have to build while harvesting timber and heavy equipment on ROW is a NO NO.

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Permalink Reply by Dry Hole on February 19, 2012 at 6:56

Katy,

 Sounds like next time I need to "hire" you to represent me to get those "damages to the remainder" ------ BTW an important case was won by a landowner in South Texas a few months back and he was awarded damages to the remainder but I am sure O & G will fight that one to the top court.

  I agree with you that the truck/equipment crossings should be at the expense of the pipeline co. but they can not put a crossing everywhere ASAP and the loggers are scared of blowouts and liabilities etc. so they usually haul mats in or push a lot of extra fill which then causes drainage problems etc.---- this $3k "charge" is usually deducted from the timber purchase bid and is never "realized" by many and is simply viewed as a "obstruction" that causes liabilities for logging crews.

  One interesting observation that I have made over the years is that Heavy Farm equipment is ignored and considered necessary yet the "yellow" industrial equip will almost always get a "rise" out the pipeline co. when the patrol plane spots it working on or near the ROW and they will send someone out the same day. Another words it is ok for a farmer to take his 50,000 lb tractor and plow a 8 inch deep furrow across the ROW but not ok to drive a 25,000 lb bulldozer down/across the ROW. The call before you dig legislation (law) places any damages below 18" on the digger so fencing in the vicinity of a known or UNKNOWN ROW has become a "very real" liability for the landowner as well and MANY issues have come up on this matter especially with fiber optic phone lines buried under a farmers fence on highway ROWs as the cable plows while operating on the back slope of the ditch tend to plow the cable in at a 45 deg angle resulting in the cable being directly under the fence posts and this trespassing line is then protected by law even though it is off ROW.

 BTW -- the TransCanada line down my way is 42" X 80' joints so working that into the hwy ditch is not an option but I have seen several 4" roll-pipe lines laid in road ROWs ditches.

 You mentioned having to still pay property taxes on the ROWs and I consider this an injustice and have often wondered if the companies are charged any local taxes ??

 

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Permalink Reply by Clyde T. Williams on February 19, 2012 at 7:16

Farmers beware

OBTW - As shown, if you have an issue with pipelines and ROW get it on the GHS blog and we can help...

In Calif...we have what is called the "San Joaquin Pipe Finder" - 4ft deep plow for breaking up/deep turning the soil and sometimes it find other things - all contracts with pipers has a clause that the pipers need to bury the pipe deep enough to allow farm equipment passage and cultivation...any risk is on them...

Yes pipers/their costs or ROW/Our costs - it is all bargining

For pipe design - pipers start with a dead straight line and any deviation must first be based on $$$ to go straight vs $$$ to deviate from straight...a good piper can put it almost anywhere.  I could put it along the high plain WofCheyanne, then to KS/COL border down to Midland then east - but proposed route must be doing other things - $$$

 

Again - this blog has some good opinions that can help or find someone who can help - don't let them run you over...

Tom

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Permalink Reply by Dry Hole on February 19, 2012 at 8:17

Thanks Tom,

 In Texas our Legislature/courts tend to be "friendly" to big business

 Also in East Texas the ground water tables are high at times and tend to "float" pipelines up in the soil structure and sometimes out of the ground and of course erosion also takes it's toll over time. 

  Have 3 short TRUE horror stories that should be told here

1. Know of a bulldozer walking across an eroded pipeline ROW and one of the tracks knocked a small pin hole in the pipe ----- contractors insurance was charged $30,000 for repairs.

2. Farmer flying his own crop duster hit a power transmission line --- walked away but lost his AC and was billed $300,000 for damages to the line. (this was many x what he was paid for the ROW)

3. Lady Farmer mowing her field at night hooked a guy wire and pulled the powerline down on top of her tractor killing her instantly ------ her estate was billed for the damages to the line.

 So my point is this --- these ROWs are necessary evils and landowners are paid 3x the value of their dirt but also add to their liability issues forever and lower the value of their entire tract and this once private tract has now become accessible by uncontrolled third parties that have been known to leave gates open allowing livestock etc. to escape out onto busy hwys creating even more liabilities for the farmer etc. etc. --- I know I am rambling on and on here but I am old enough to have WITNESSED ALL OF THE ABOVE.

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Permalink Reply by Clyde T. Williams on February 19, 2012 at 9:38

A more friendly story from the SanJoaquin Valley - Oil company pipeline leaked 50,000bbl into cultivate orchard and vegetable row crops - the oil company cleanup the spill quickly and had to pay for permanent loss of cultivation - 50 years at $10K/year and the farmer kept the land - after one year the farmer didn't have anything much to do - live off the interest...got his tractor, lots of fertilizer/water, rice huills, and a deep bottom plow and three years later he was back in full cultivation and lot better production  

1/100 times Heaven Helps

Tom

Permalink Reply by Clyde T. Williams on February 19, 2012 at 14:34

Send me the Lat/Long I can give you a guess/estimate of probably archeological assessment / also wetlands

There are standard mitigation/compensation clauses for historical, archeologic. and paleontologic resources if encountered during trenching - if archeological then also humen remains - got any tepee/hogan rings...

Give me a gravel pit and I can usually find some fossils and river bends with inside curves facing SE would have high potential for village remains or go out over a plowed field after a 1in rainfall...

They can be factored in as almost anything before you sign on the dotted lines....  Ask any/all list such as this one before you start negotiations and leave it up to the other side....Tom

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Permalink Reply by robert minton on February 19, 2012 at 9:09

Dry Hole speak with wise tongue! Every angle in a pipeline increases the resistance to flow,necessitating larger pumps, so pipeline companies don't like to make "bends". In additon, the pressure is greater on the down side of the bend. And, the $3000/ crossing sounds like a "con". Never heard of such before.

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Permalink Reply by Dry Hole on February 19, 2012 at 10:28

Robert,

  $ for crossings not a con everything today cost big $ ---- 18 wheeler has to haul mats in (>.$550) and out (>$550) heavy equipment (that is assigned other jobs) has to place mats and add embankment ramps -- then has to reverse procedure after job ---- crew and job delayed do to above - truck had to switch trailers and lost a day of production etc.

   Sort of wound up today so I will unload on true situations

  Farmer goes to field one morning and finds ALL his gates open and a welder working on a pipeline --- Farmer says "welder why did you leave my gates open with cattle in the pastures?"  Welder says " 18 wheeler load of pipe coming in and the driver can not stop in that busy hwy to open a gate "    45 minutes later Farmer says " Driver why did you leave my gates open with cattle in the pasture" Driver says "they were already open when I got here and we have been told to leave the gates like we find them"  -------- Farmer closes all gates and goes home ----- 5 pm same situation in reverse but farmer is not around this time --

 11pm Hwy Patrol knocks on farmers door "Mr. Farmer your cattle are in the middle of the Hwy and have caused a fatal crash and your neighbors child has been killed ----- you have neglected to close your gate "  farmer says "Officer the pipeline workers are working inside that gate and must have left it open" Officer says " Mr.farmer you mean you can not control the events on your own property ?" Crying Farmer with his head down says "No sir"    ------ Next Day farmer calls CEO of XYZ Pipeline --- "Mr. CEO your people caused a horrible fatal wreck last night "   ---- Mr CEO says "prove it" ---- Farmers life and reputation ruined---- now he is just a free gate watchman for the Pipeline Co.

  Next Week farmer  encounters welder again and says "Welder you have closed my interior gates and have weaned some of my baby calves from their mothers and they have died and that pipe truck has run over a cow and broke her leg " ----- Welder says "we have been instructed to close all gates now so call the CEO if you have a problem" ---- Farmer calls CEO -- Ceo says "prove it"------  Now Farmer is just a free gate watchman

 

Sounds like a load of DRAMA to outsiders but seems very real to US FARMERS who  have been there and seen that.

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Permalink Reply by GoshDarn on February 19, 2012 at 11:12

Thanks for sharing -- Dry Hole, Tom, Kathy, and others.

For those who've never lived outside of the city limits (i.e., away from the utility hookups and many miles from the glow of the city lights, far out on the land), such citified folks can be so very blind (and deaf) to the hardships and concerns of hardworking farmers/ranchers who face many such usage battles simply to keep their land (and, at times, to scratch out a hardscrabble living).

America was founded on a fierce sense of independence.  The people who actually work the land and drive the tractors and brand the cattle as independent farmers/ranchers continue this tradition to this very day.  Few in the city (being spoiled by the luxury of easy access to running water, cable, phone, NG, electricity, etc.) -- can relate to the country-way hardships, nor do they have any understanding of the associated liabilities of ethical land management per insurance premiums and legal technicalities.

Indeed, the tunnel vision of so many city slickers tends to be easily duped by the lying spin of the hired PR b.s.-ers who continuously sell the city folks a bill of goods about how simple farming can be.

Such liars.  And then they use disingenuous arguments with false assumptions about our natural resources to manipulate debates, creating more b.s. to buttress their self-serving subjectivity so as to help put money in their own dang pockets per pumping the stock of companies that they either work for and/or own equity shares in (or companies they think can help them make more money).

Yep.  Such heartless folks.  It's all me-me-me.

It's all about making money for themselves. 

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Permalink Reply by Dry Hole on February 19, 2012 at 12:01

Thanks GD for your support,

 This is Sunday and I keep forgetting that we are suppose to Forgive and Forget all these wrongs that have been forced upon us. LOL

 If I had my way these big companies can keep their $ and just leave this "gate watchman" alone. $ don't always = Happiness in the end

BTW -- I have a neighbor that works in town and a oil co. is building a pad and road on his place for the last couple of weeks --- I close his outside gate a couple of times a day and he closes it again at night when he comes in from work so schools need to have a class called "close gates 101" taught in English and Spanish  ---- today's plastic small cars @ 70 mph do not fair well against a 1200 lb cow so I guess I better go now and check them gates.

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