Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by DrWAVeSport Cd1 on March 16, 2012 at 11:27

"Too much crony capitalism going on these days. Let the free market sort it out."

What????  Every piece of Legislation since the beginning of TIME and MANKIND has been soaked in "crony capitalism."   How do you think they ever get a Majority Vote????  Because Politicians' possessing of a "free market" ideological vote?  LOL Don't think so. 

That "free market" ideology ~ which by the way ~ NO Country really runs on... will have U.S. paying EU gasoline prices if WE don't do some ENERGY RESTRUCTURING on a North American Continental Level.  China, Japan, India, South America, EU, are all eating up more and more of the World's oil supply.  U.S. has cut back, and WE STILL have prices shooting up to $4.

I for one don't want to ever pay EU prices!!!

Hey, maybe Obama, Vitter, and Jindal can use your philosophy per NOT GETTING ANYTHING DONE Toward U.S. Energy Independence..."WE would rather let the free market sort it out."  That ought to get them ALL RE-ELECTED!

?????????

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by LP on March 16, 2012 at 11:48

Right. Free Market all the way. Except for solar. Toss a few billions their way because they can't compete with China in the free market. So, Free Market...absolutely. Except for wind turbines. They need a little taxpayer help to get the spin going. Then Free Market. Except for Ethanol. The sacred cow feed. But then, let the market run the oil and gas industry. Dang that big oil anyway. Well, except the Brazilian big oil company, Petrogas. Need to give them some billions so they can drill in the Gulf and by golly, we will be their best customers.

Oh, we'll give a few millions to Fisker Automotive so they can build an all electric $100,000 sports car....in Finland. Leonardo DiCaprio appreciated it. As for Natural Gas, let it sink or swim on its own because other than everything else, the free market should determine the winners and losers.

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Permalink Reply by Keith on March 16, 2012 at 11:59

All of the energy heavily subsidized sources you mentioned wind, solar, and ehtanol have failed why should we want natural gas to be mentioned in that company?

I think natural gas will be like coal and oil, they were game changers. The industrial revolution with out coal no way, the growth of the 1900's with out oil would have had to wait 100 years or so. No government decided that coal, and later oil was going to be the energy source of the future and natural gas will be the same. Subsidies are for whiners, we're not whiners

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Permalink Reply by LP on March 16, 2012 at 12:06

I agree. Should be a level playing field. No subsidies at all for anyone. It's just that the whiners keep running up to Uncle Sam with their empty bowl and saying "more please".

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Permalink Reply by Keith on March 16, 2012 at 12:13

I think I've posted this earlier, but the sugar industry is a prime example. Sugar prices were at all time highs and the sugar industry still expected welfare and tariffs. I'm no Vitter fan even though I agree with his vote on the bill we are discussing. Although I am curious how he has voted on Sugar subsidies and tariffs. Anyone that wanted to show him being a hypocrite on this issue should research those votes.

 

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Permalink Reply by LP on March 16, 2012 at 12:59

The 2007 Farm Bill
   This was a vote to support trade subsidies
   Sen. Vitter voted in favor of trade subsidies

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Permalink Reply by Keith on March 16, 2012 at 13:32

Hey now that was the hooker days, he was too busy to read the bill.

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Permalink Reply by DrWAVeSport Cd1 on March 16, 2012 at 12:36

KB,

Wait a minute...  You can't go back that far in U.S. History and use Yesteryears Coal and Oil Growth/Success as your premise/justification for Today's WORLD Marketplace and Supply Environment for a "free market" Success Story on Shale Oil & Gas...  That's a false premise.  Life changed when WORLD sources of COAL and OIL took over...

Yesteryear's Coal and Oil didn't have OPEC to kill them off.  In fact, it's OPEC that DID kill off the U.S. Energy Industry! 

The Great New U.S. Story of Shale Oil & Gas has done quite well on its own...  But, It needs the Backing and Support of a U.S. Energy Policy that MEANS BUSINESS and one that SUPPORTS and DEMONSTRATES SUPPORT FOR CHEAPER Transportation FUELS!!!

Which in turn will SUPPORT Americans Savings and Spending of  their hard earned paychecks on Other Needs BESIDES $4 AND $5 GASOLINE!  Which in turn SPURS U.S. ECONOMY AND JOBS.

I don't call that "whining."  I call it WINNING OUR ENERGY FREEDOM.

DrWAVeSport Cd1 3/16/2012

 

   

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Permalink Reply by Keith on March 16, 2012 at 13:25

No I'm not waiting a minute. Supply and demand hasn't changed because of "Today's WORLD Marketplace and Supply Environment". Economics didn't take a break because this is the new age. The future energy choice will be made because of logic and rational, not because of subsidies. If subsidies worked we would all be driving solar cars, but it doesn't, so why bother?

 

OPEC is not even a true cartel. OPEC has pumped oil at a maximum rate with a few exceptions since it formed. The oil imbargos and oil price caps of the 1970's caused a supply problem in America, which in turn caused a drilling boom, followed by a drilling bust. The boom was irrational and the bust was painful, but OPEC didn't kill off the industry, irrational actions by irrational people caught up in a mania did that.

 

Now that the Gas Shale mania appears to be past, we have people lobbying for handouts and protection just as the United States oil industry begged for during the bust in the 1980's and 1990's. If we in the industry can't market Natural gas when gasoline gets to a $5.00 average, then we aren't smart enough to punch enough holes in the ground to meet demand anyway. Subsidies don't fix stupid!

 

The answer to get Natural gas back to where WE want it is not by having to kiss Washington's arse. The answer is to allow gasoline and diesel prices to get so high that Natural gas is a no brainer for transportation fuel. That's when you'll see the natural gas industry take top billing and not one minute before.

We don't win our energy freedom by begging Washington for subsidies, tarifffs or anything else. Everyone should know by now that once your beholden to Washington you loose freedom.

 

Do you think people in the natural gas industry should enjoy the same type of freedom that people on welfare and foodstamps enjoy, because that's what corporate welfare is, it's no different.

 

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Permalink Reply by DrWAVeSport Cd1 on March 16, 2012 at 14:24

Tell that to Corporate America...  The BIGGEST FREELOADERS OF THEM ALL!

And just to set the record straight...  I lived in Oklahoma City when ALLL but a few Oil & Gas Working Men and Women LOST THEIR JOBS/HOMES/BUSINESSES/RETIREMENTS BECAUSE OIL & GAS JOBS WENT OVERSEAS. 

AND WHERE DID OIL & GAS GO?????  YOU GET ONE GUESS.  OPEC NATIONS!!!!!

We just agree to disagree...   However, your juxtaposition example of  Pioneer Day Coal and Oil with Today's Market Place is Apples and Oranges and doesn't work.  IMHO.   NO COMPETITION BACK IN THEM THERE DAYS...  CHEAP FOREIGN OIL IN THESE HERE DAYS ~ UNTIL...

CNG, LNG and SHALE OIL & GAS NEED OUR SUPPORT... AND INCENTIVES.

Just like Our American Troops.  Without the U.S. Government and OUR Support...Where Would They Be OVERSEAS????  And, Where Will They Be When They ALL Come HOME???? Yeah...Let's just let the "free marketplace" handle that too.  Or maybe WE just need To Let Them & Their Families Do The Best They Can On Their Own... Injured, ill, and Broke! 

??????

Begging...  Who's Begging? 

Agree to Disagree.

DrWAVeSport Cd1 3/16/2012

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Keith on March 17, 2012 at 1:24

"Just like Our American Troops.  Without the U.S. Government and OUR Support...Where Would They Be OVERSEAS????  And, Where Will They Be When They ALL Come HOME???? Yeah...Let's just let the "free marketplace" handle that too.  Or maybe WE just need To Let Them & Their Families Do The Best They Can On Their Own... Injured, ill, and Broke! "

 

From looking at your above quote I think your use of analogy as a debate tool is severely flawed at best. Our troops work for the government in the name of the American people. The military is not a free market function, so your attempt at connect the dots logic is laughable.

 

Now maybe you haven't watched the news lately, our military and government hasn't really done a good job of taking care of "injured, ill and broke" soldiers that are overseas and at home. So if you want that same poorly managed government to assist our Energy infrastructure in the same manner that they have assisted our soldiers when they come home, then we'll all be walking to Wal-mart.

 

Your going to get better at online debate, but you need to read more and talk less. Don't give up.

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Permalink Reply by DrWAVeSport Cd1 on March 17, 2012 at 5:10

Ad Hominem ~ Falicy Attack Tactic...

U.S. Government NEEDS to DO BETTER IN EVERY DEPARTMENT.  IMHO.

Maybe that's one thing we agree on. 

Our Troops Work FOR U.S.  US.   WE need to DEMAND that Our Troops be "subsidized, supported, and spend" Our Tax Dollars/Subsidies on Their and Their Families' Special Circumstances and Needs.  

Maybe we can agree MORE NEEDS to Be Done here.

"Read more and talk less..."  "Methinks you doth protest too much."

Thanks KB for the LOL of My Day.

True Southern Gentlemen Always engage their Detractors with Dignity and Decorum...

DrWAVeSport Cd1 3/17/2012

 

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