Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by P.G. on February 8, 2011 at 4:45

I wonder how much do EPA regulations and requirement add to costs in conversions?

How many more conversions would we be seeing if the government would simply just get out of the way?

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Permalink Reply by Max on February 8, 2011 at 7:04

P.G.

Looks like the EPA are the good guys this time, their clean diesel regulations have opened the door to LNG. 

 

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WHY CLEAN DIESELS?

Diesel engines power the movement of goods across the nation, help construct the buildings in which we live and work, help build the roads on which we travel, and carry millions of children to school each day. While diesel engines provide mobility and are critical to the nation’s economy, exhaust from diesel engines contains pollutants that negatively impact human health and the environment. Diesel engines emit large amounts of nitrogen oxides, particulate matter and air toxics, which contribute to serious public health problems.

More than 20 million diesel engines in operation today do not meet EPA’s new clean diesel standards, yet these engines can continue to operate for 20 to 30 years. EPA established innovative programs to accelerate emission reductions from older diesel engines to provide more immediate air quality benefits. The goal of these innovative programs is to address in-use diesel engines by promoting a variety of cost-effective emission reduction strategies, including: switching to cleaner fuels; retrofitting, repairing, repowering, and replacing equipment; and reducing idling. EPA has made significant progress toward this goal by engaging in partnerships, fostering innovative technologies, and providing funding assistance to accelerate the introduction of clean diesel technologies.

NCDC programs are creating demand for diesel emission reduction technologies. The purpose of EPA’s Verification Program is to evaluate the emission reduction capabilities of a given technology. Through this process, EPA helps to instill confidence in our stakeholder community that the verified emission reductions will be achieved. The verification process includes a thorough technical review of the technology as well as tightly controlled testing to quantify emission reductions.

Through NCDC, EPA has collaborated with thousands of partners to reduce the health effects of diesel emissions across the nation. These diverse and committed partners include state and local governments that have created incentive programs to reduce emissions from both public and private fleets; businesses and industry groups that have provided technical assistance and devoted millions of dollars to retrofit diesel engines; and environmental or community groups that have successfully advocated for and managed effective projects to help reduce the public health impacts from diesel emissions.

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Permalink Reply by Marc Schulz on February 8, 2011 at 7:31

The CNG addition to the Diesel engine is the best bridge we could ask for.

Existing vehicles can utilize CNG. This can bridge the development of CNG stations across America

Cost is low. emissions are better than Diesel alone. Price of methane is currently low and will likely be lower than diesel for a long time to come. Reduce foreign oil requirements. Generate jobs in USA. 

 

This process is proven, and has been used in Canada for some time with large diesel compressor engines. 

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Permalink Reply by essay on February 8, 2011 at 8:54

This is a nice start, there will be a niche for existing equipment conversions for some time to come, and will indeed help foster refueling infrastructure.

 

Now if only we could get rid of the onerous licensing requirements for shops doing passenger conversions for average consumers.

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Permalink Reply by Max on February 8, 2011 at 11:57

essay,

Is there a special license required to install LNG or CNG on vehicles? 

 

Another question, what if you installed everything yourself, converted your truck, hooked up a compressor to your NG line and filled your tanks at night, would I have to get a license? 

 

Another question, If I were involved in a accident, resulting in a fire, and the sweet loving kinfolk,s discovered I got a gas well in my back yard that had to be tied to the ground just to keep it there, would that license protect you from any liabilities?

 

If the answer's are Yes, Yes, and No....... Will it go underground?

 

 

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Permalink Reply by essay on February 8, 2011 at 14:08

I do believe the current regulation regarding NGV conversions was enacted by the E.P.A. in what it saw as enforcement of the Clean Air Act regarding just what you propose, i.e., unauthorized conversions.  Not only do you need a permit to be legal you need specific permits for different model/engine combinations etc. and then you are limited in the number you can convert... so in short, it is a very, very expensive proposition.  I can't make heads or tails out of much on the E.P.A. website, so if anyone has specific information about how much any given conversion costs in the U.S. I'd love to see it.  NGV America says the average conversion is anywhere from $12,000 to $18,000.  It's also common knowledge on the interwebs that you can get it done in Mexico for less than a grand.  E.P.A. certified engines are probably safer, but are they 10k-15k safer?  I really doubt it.

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Permalink Reply by P.G. on February 8, 2011 at 16:43

Sounds likely why we don't see much converting going on...

Makes one wonder if there is more behind this than safety, huh?

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Permalink Reply by P.G. on February 8, 2011 at 13:38

We had "Cash for Clunkers", maybe we could use, "Cash for Conversions", huh?

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Permalink Reply by Max on February 9, 2011 at 8:04

If there was a full blown effort to convert to NGV's, the cost would naturally decrease as it does with all other consumer items. 

 

Take VCRs, DVD players, Plasma TVs, etc., the more produced, the lower the cost.  The first computer I purchased cost $3,200, it even had a whopping 500 MB hard drive, impossible to fill up....

 

I think P.G. is right, they would have to start a "Cash for Conversion" program to get started, but why should I pay for that program?  Who would it help, and would it in the long run, help me?

 

With Essays cost to convert listed above, a conversion would never pay for itself, the vehicle would wear out before you would see a cost benefit to switch fuels.  Today's cost @ $3.00/gal. @20MPG/10,000 miles/year would be $1,500 fuel cost per year.  Taking a guess, fuel price for a NGV, $1.50/gal. @20MPG/10,000 miles/year would be $750.  Fuel savings per year; $750.  You would need to reduce that amount again if the fuel economy of LGN is less than gasoline or diesel, or if it's better, add to that amount.

 

A guess would be a savings of $550 to $850 per year.  At $15,000 for a conversion, you would have to operated that vehicle for 27/18 years before you would realize any savings.  If we want to keep the government out and let the market dictate a conversion, Oil would have to increase by several factors to make the market look for cheaper fuels.

 

I don't think the real cost of importing oil into this country is reflected in the price we pay per gallon.  If it was, then $10.00/gal. would be more realistic.  We, the American people, pay for keeping the sea lanes open and general peace around the world.  We also pay a lot for "Safety": Homeland Security.   When our dollars go overseas for energy, many of them end up in the hands of our enemies.

 

Would a "Cash for Conversion" program be better for us?  Would pressure from the government forcing manufactures to produce a NGV be unconstitutional?  Some of us say, NO, and some say, YES.  I think it's time for this country to have a real discussion about our energy needs.  

 

We have 'Clean Gas', let's use it.

Max 

 

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by essay on February 9, 2011 at 9:11

The cynic in me says that there's nothing natural about the cost to converting NGV's in the U.S. and that the E.P.A. is a barrier that must be removed or at least greatly marginalized before any budding effort has anything approaching a remote chance of success.  Further, I feel that the barrier is purely special interest politics down to it's rotten little core; there are no end to the lobbies that benefit.

 

We don't have adult conversations in the public forum anymore, and it seems the opposing sides have not agreed on reality for many issues in quite some time.  Our system is quickly becoming the tyranny of the majority, and both sides are guilty.

 

It is a national security issue, pure and simple.  On that we couldn't agree more.

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