Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Les Bamburg on May 18, 2011 at 15:05

Sesport, fleet owners are only going to deal with a proven contractor rather than an individual garage.  In some cases the company with the technology may license a 3rd party to handle the installation.  Again, the packages are either installed as part of the engine/truck assembly or added to the new truck by a 3rd party.  In either case the package design and emissions performance is certified by the EPA.  

Permalink Reply by P.G. on May 19, 2011 at 1:39

Would there be a market for converting existing vehicles if it were not so cost prohibitive?

Permalink Reply by Les Bamburg on May 19, 2011 at 2:49

PG, I am referring to heavy duty engines/trucks (~ 9L - 15L).  Such truck owners do not want to retro-fit existing engines.  They just decide to buy NGV's when they are ready for a new truck.  If a local or state air district provides incentives they may elect to buy the new truck earlier. 

 

Realize that a lot of the incremental cost is in the fuel tank and these would be very difficult to add to an existing truck.  Much of the design in new CNG HD trucks is placing the fuel tanks in optimum locations since you need more space.     

Permalink Reply by Max on May 6, 2011 at 3:20

Majority of cost is for fuel tank which is $25,000 for LNG and $35,000 for CNG.

 

Why?

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Permalink Reply by Les Bamburg on May 11, 2011 at 17:37

Max, the materials are specialized and costly and the low volume of production means there is little automation in the fabrication.

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Permalink Reply by Max on May 12, 2011 at 0:16

Les,

I googled 'cng fuel tank construction' and came across a PDF article with the test involved and pictures of failed systems causing extreme fires. 

 

I couldn't get the attachments to work, but did see why the cost to develop and place these tanks into service was a major cost.  I thought a regular oxygen/acetylene bottle would work, but that's not the case.  There were three major design types with two being made from composite materials. 

 

There was one picture from a accident in Washington State of a Honda Civic and the only thing left was the frame!  If there is anybody out there who wants to "Home-build" their own CNG system, I would think twice about it.

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Permalink Reply by Skip Peel - Mineral Consultant on May 12, 2011 at 1:37

Max, if the Honda Civic you mention is the one I have seen before, the fire damage is unrelated to the CNG tank.  In the early days of GHS we had a CNG Vehicle Group page.  One of the discussions in the group was about that vehicle and the facts behind the fire.  Unfortunately, the discussions from that group no longer appear in the site archive.  I think if you perform a google search you will find the truth behind the photo.  And discover that it has been used numerous times by those who oppose the use of natural gas as a vehicle fuel.

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Permalink Reply by Max on May 13, 2011 at 5:12

Les,

Yes, I found the picture on several other sites along with pictures of burned buses and other vehicles.  One picture of a Civic burning was started by a test group to test the tank to see how long it would last in a bonfire situation.  It blew up.  One picture of a burned bus was started by a battery fire while it was parked overnight in a maintenance shop and did not relate to the tanks. 

 

I'm sure there are groups out there who will use this pictures for their own agenda and mislabel them. 

 

I did find several good reads on tank test to satisfy the FMVSS 303 & 304 codes required by manufacturers to produce and sell the tanks.  You would be surprised at what they have to do to pass the test, it's a real eye opener.  There are four different types of tanks; metal, composites, fiberglass/composites, and plastic/composites.  They all have to pass before they're allowed to be used.

 

It makes me wonder, how did automobile gasoline tanks ever pass these test?

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Permalink Reply by Les Bamburg on May 12, 2011 at 2:41

Max, a lot of recent innovation has occurred for the CNG tanks installed on medium and heavy duty vehicles to decrease the weight.  This has allowed greater capacity to be installed on the large trucks and significantly increased the cruising range.

 

By the way, the cost numbers I quoted were for heavy duty trucks rather than light duty cars.  Sorry for any confusion.

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Permalink Reply by Skip Peel - Mineral Consultant on May 13, 2011 at 5:29

Max, I suggest that you look for a safety comparison between standard gasoline vehicle tanks and cng vehicle tanks.  IMO, a comparison is the best way to judge safety and when done so by a unbiased, qualified party, the cng tank has advantages over gasoline tanks.  One that comes to mind off hand is that a breached cng tank disperses the gas into the air while a ruptured gasoline tank pools the liquid and allows it to run freely across the surface.

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Permalink Reply by Max on May 15, 2011 at 8:24

Skip,

I found several articles relating to the safety of CNG versus gasoline/diesel fuels.

 

CNG vehicles rated well above gasoline/diesel vehicles, 40% safer. 

 

The infamous picture of the Honda Civic was discussed in one article, the Civic was sitting in a traffic jam and a vehicle traveling @ an estimated 100 MPH hit the Civic from behind.  The Civic was duel-fueled and the gasoline tank ruptured and caused the fire.  The CNG tank performed as it was designed and did not explode.

 

There was a concern with CNG vehicles in parking garages.  All parking buildings are designed for fuels that pool, (gasoline/diesel) and not for lighter than air fuels.  Upgrades would have to be done, installing a vent, and the cost would be minimal for any operators.

 

The U.S. is lagging far behind a lot of other countries in the use of CNG/LNG.  All the countries listed had government programs of various types to encourage the use of CNG and some had passed laws to convert fleets to CNG.  Pakistan and Egypt were both in the top ten!  Go figure....

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Permalink Reply by Max on May 15, 2011 at 8:28

Les,

Found the info on the new tanks, half the weight of standard tanks and stronger also.

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